When Dwayne Epstein released a book on Lee Marvin in 2013 I bought it as soon as it turned up on the shelf at a local bookstore. A few years later I was interviewing him about the book and Marvin here at Mike’s Take. Check out our conversation right here and be sure to grab a copy of the Lee Marvin bio if you already haven’t.

Considering I have named 1967’s The Dirty Dozen as my go to answer for the frequently asked question, “Hey Mike, what is your all-time favorite movie?” I was quite excited to learn that Dwayne was writing a book on the film’s production and it’s subsequent place in movie history. I was also honored that he mentioned my name in the book’s acknowledgments for having shared some information with him that I had stored away here in the vault at Mike’s Take.

Yes I consider myself a “know-it-all” at times but the truth is I don’t know it all when it comes to the making of The Dirty Dozen but I’m getting closer now that I’ve read and more importantly enjoyed Dwayne’s new book on the classic war film that brought together one of the most unforgettable casts of so called tough guy actors ever assembled.

 Now on to the questions…..

I love that opening quote you use from Ron Howard and the effect the film had upon him seeing it as a twelve-year-old. It pretty much describes my own impression of seeing the film at about 9 years of age on television sitting next to my Father. Where did you first see the film and at what age?

Dwayne : I was a kid of about eleven or twelve when I first saw it on television. It was aired on two consecutive nights and I was enthralled, watching it every time it was on in reruns. When I got older I was able to see it on the big screen at a revival theater and it was even more impressive.

Was this book a natural progression having already written a book on the film’s leading actor Lee Marvin?

Dwayne : Indeed it was but there was a gap of ten years between projects since my agent, Mike Hamilburg passed away. I was left in free fall until literary agent Lee Sobel contacted me. I checked him out and decided to take him up on his offer of representation. In short order we came up with a new book idea, he goaded me into a proposal, and the next thing I knew, we got a publisher’s offer! Talk about your miracles! I highly endorse Lee as both an agent and a mensch, two things of which the world is in short supply.

You dedicate a number of pages early on to the evolution of the novel written by E.M. Nathanson. I found it kind of funny that the author’s pal Russ Meyer coined the phrase The Dirty Dozen.

Dwayne : That is indeed a fascinating story. Worked like this: a friend of mine, Beverly Gray, who also writes non-fiction about filmmaking, had recently written a book on the making of The Graduate (1967) entitled Seduced by Mrs. Robinson, which I was able to use as a sort of template. Even better than that, when I told Beverly what I was working on, she told me she had interviewed The Dirty Dozen’s original author, E. M. Nathanson, but it had never been published. In one of the most gracious acts of kindness I’ve ever experienced, she gave me the interview on a CD which proved invaluable to my research as Nathanson passed away in 2016. Can’t thank Beverly enough! ***With the kind words Dwayne has shared about Beverly Gray I thought it appropriate to add a link to her own website, Beverly in Movieland for those that might want to see what she’s up to.***

Personally, I’m not sure I’d change anything in the finished film aside from wanting a more definitive answer as to Clint Walker’s demise but is there anything in the original source novel you wish had been played up more in the film?

Dwayne : There were actually a few things that were left out or not explained that could’ve been dealt with besides the death of Clint Walker’s Posey which I do address in the book. The conflict between Major Reisman and Col. Breed; two female characters that were central to the novel were left out, and the story events at Breed’s jump school were compacted, all in the interest of time and money but they are all explained and explored in Killin’ Generals.

So Robert Aldrich lands the directing job but I was surprised at the trivia nugget that Ken Hyman was eyeing Sam Peckinpah for a second choice if he couldn’t land Aldrich. Just curious if you’re as big a Sam Peckinpah fan as I am and by extension his films.

Dwayne : I do like Peckinpah but it often depends on the film. He made some great ones, of course, but he also made some real stinkers, like The Killer Elite (1975), and Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Garcia (1974). As one film critic wrote after seeing it, “Bring me the head of the studio.” He had talent, no doubt, but he also wasted a lot of it.

When it comes to Aldrich I still think he’s an under-appreciated filmmaker. Outside of The Dirty Dozen would you care to recommend other titles in his filmography?

Dwayne : Of course, as Aldrich was wildly under-appreciated. It’s funny in that they are all wildly different filmmakers, but Aldrich is kind of in the same category as the likes of Sam Fuller and Don Siegel. They were all considered hacks in their own country but were beloved for their work by European audiences and critics. For Aldrich, the praise started (and American damnation) with Kiss Me Deadly (1955), but his career was lengthy and fascinating with such great films as Attack! (1956), costarring Lee Marvin, What Ever Happened to Baby Jane? (1962), The Flight of the Phoenix (1966), Ulzana’s Raid (1972), Emperor of the North (1973), The Longest Yard (1974), The Choirboys (1977)Twilight’s Last Gleaming (1977), …just some pretty damned good movies!

Both John Wayne and Jack Palance were rumored to be a part of the movie prior to production. I love the “what-if’s” of movie history so were there any other actor’s names tossed around who were in line to play a part in The Dirty Dozen?

Dwayne : Having read my book, you know there were! Interestingly, both Wayne and Palance gave very different reasons for passing on the film which I explain and they are both pretty bizarre. Other actors of the day were bandied about by Aldrich and producer Ken Hyman, such as Sydney Poitier and Burt Lancaster, but if your readers want to know more, they have to read the book!

Let’s put you on the spot. John Cassavetes for Best Supporting Actor or his Dirty Dozen co-star George Kennedy for his performance as Dragline opposite Paul Newman in Cool Hand Luke? For those unaware Kennedy scored the Oscar.

Dwayne : Obviously, I’m biased and would have loved to have seen Cassavetes walk away with the statue. However, there’s also no denying how great Kennedy was in Cool Hand Luke. Another was Gene Hackman in Bonnie & Clyde. Tough call all the way around that just drives home the point what a terrific year it was for American movies. It’s a shame we haven’t had a year like that for some time.

On the subject of Cool Hand Luke, I find it hard to believe that the Paul Newman classic was never nominated for Best Picture. But then neither was The Dirty Dozen. A tough year at the Oscars. Best Picture nominees were Bonnie and Clyde, The Graduate, Dr. Dolittle, Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner, and the Award winner, In the Heat of the Night. Care to pick 5 titles out of the 7 I’ve mentioned as nominees and give us your choice for a winner?

Dwayne : Personally, I think it was between Bonnie & Clyde and The Graduate. I still scratch my head over the Best Picture nomination for Dr. Doolittle. It flopped at the box office and was ravaged by the critics. Clearly, the studio took a bath on the expensive turkey and tried to recoup their losses by lobbying for an Oscar nomination and got it. Not the first time that’s happened, by the way. In other words, it got the Best Picture nomination that really belonged to The Dirty Dozen.

Any truth to the story of Robert Aldrich being approached to cut a specific scene from the film in order to secure an Oscar nod for Best Direction?

Dwayne : That’s one of the many urban legends that has shadowed this film since its release. The short answer is no, it’s not true. According to the film’s producer, Ken Hyman, who’s heard that story for years, it’s simply a matter of the Academy not liking Aldrich and Aldrich not liking the mainstream Hollywood community. Aldrich himself had said he wouldn’t get an Oscar nomination if he made a biblical epic that the Academy loves. Actually, he did make a biblical epic, unfortunately, it was Sodom and Gomorrah (1962).

The film has made me a lifelong fan of many actors associated with The Dirty Dozen and again that’s from seeing it at an impressionable age. Marvin and Bronson of course but I’d also number Cassavetes, Richard Jaeckel, Clint Walker, and Telly Savalas among them. How about you?

Dwayne : Absolutely. When I first saw the film as a kid I was awestruck by Cassavetes. I had never seen a character like that in a movie before. He was such a snarky punk and he reminded me a little of myself when I was a kid, but without the criminal intent. Like you, I was also enamored with Bronson and Marvin and went out of my way to see everything they did. It’s also what led me to eventually research and write Lee Marvin Point Blank. The rest of the cast, even Robert Ryan’s martinet Col. Breed, were uniformly excellent.

Jim Brown actually retired from pro football and the Cleveland Browns while filming the movie in England?

Dwayne : Indeed he did. Speculation about it was the talk of the sports journalism world at the time. It’s a fascinating tale that I cover in Killin’ Generals in detail, including an impromptu press conference he held during the filming on location in England.

Of course, the success of The Dirty Dozen led to so many films attempting to borrow the template of its plot in hopes of achieving some box-office dollars of their own. Any titles you think worked well and have come to admire?

Dwayne : Several, actually. The last two chapters of my book are spent detailing The Dirty Dozen’s influence in film, television, and even books. Author E.M. Nathanson wrote a wonderful sequel in the 1980s titled A Dirty Distant War in which Reisman and several of the surviving dozen (spoiler alert: they were only all killed off in the movie, not the novel) are involved in a secret mission near the end of WWII that concerns our early involvement in Southeast Asia. It’s an even better book than the original. As for films, I thought the likes of everything from Kelly’s Heroes (1970) to Inglorious Basterds (2009) were great films that took their cue from the original Dirty Dozen. I haven’t seen either Suicide Squad (2016) or the Guardians of the Galaxy series but I do know they were heavily influenced by The Dozen.

The Dozen was brought to the small screen in a series of TV movies beginning in 1985. It may have made for good ratings but was it a mistake?

Dwayne : I don’t know if they were necessarily mistakes so much as they were just subpar compared to the original. All of them, including the short-lived series with Ben Murphy, placed the emphasis on the plots instead of the characters, which were embarrassingly cliched. Lee Marvin returned in the first TV movie and his son told me a hysterical anecdote about what his father thought of it, even before he started filming. Author E. M. Nathanson thought even less of the TV series even though he was asked to write a script for it that was turned down by the producers. His exclusive comments on the show are also in my book.

And finally….

Every now and then the word “re-make” is attached to The Dirty Dozen. I took a shot at recasting the film for fun a while back. Care to pick an actor from today’s crop to portray the role of Major Reisman if indeed a production gets greenlit?

Dwayne : Some of the current crop of actors I envisioned are all too old now, unfortunately. If they go with the same characters I would’ve liked to have seen Franko played by either Pacino or DeNiro with Tommy Lee Jones as Major Reisman. But, as I said, they are all a little too long in the tooth at this point. There are other actors cut from a similar cloth, such as either Josh Brolin or Titus Welliver as Reisman, but let’s not kid ourselves. It’s all purely speculation as there is and always will be just one classic original Dirty Dozen.

A special thank you to Dwayne Epstein for joining me here at Mike’s Take and sharing some thoughts and trivia on the movie which captured my life long attention all those years ago and of course to my own Dad for allowing me to sit by his side and enjoy every minute of it when I was just a little guy.

Be sure to grab a copy of Dwayne’s book on the Dirty Dozen and fill in some of the gaps he hinted at concerning it’s development and it’s road to completion. Then there all the names involved and some truly amusing stories about many of my own movie heroes and hopefully some of yours.